"Sinners Saved By Grace; Saints Sanctified by Christ"
Interesting concepts are being discussed here. Now, the conservative movement (which I know Corey and I are part of) focuses more on our identification in "sin." The Romans passage seen in Corey's passage is interesting paradox.
If you read the epistles as a single reading, you will find that Paul identifies ALL believers as "saints," "brothers and sisters" and "believers." You never find a statement of condemnation. This is important because I think the Southern Baptist movement sometimes preaches about "sinners" and allows very little movement towards HOLINESS.
With this said, you guys are correct! But remember, God calls us to be saints, not sinners. This is why Jesus (in the Sermon on the Mount) calls His followers to seek holiness, not sin. Read the Sermon and ponder what it means to be "poor in spirit" "meek" and the other terms that Jesus says are BLESSED!
God Bless
was
If you read the epistles as a single reading, you will find that Paul identifies ALL believers as "saints," "brothers and sisters" and "believers." You never find a statement of condemnation. This is important because I think the Southern Baptist movement sometimes preaches about "sinners" and allows very little movement towards HOLINESS.
With this said, you guys are correct! But remember, God calls us to be saints, not sinners. This is why Jesus (in the Sermon on the Mount) calls His followers to seek holiness, not sin. Read the Sermon and ponder what it means to be "poor in spirit" "meek" and the other terms that Jesus says are BLESSED!
God Bless
was
posted by Was at
11:40 AM
9 Comments:
wait so what does it even mean to be blessed lest we take that word for granted....
Again, in looking at holiness, one key to understanding holiness is very simply understanding more of who God is and seeing more of Him. THEN .... we see our sinfulness, and a direct response to seeing more of the holiness of God is the understanding of our own sinfulness. As we draw closer to Him, our sin can not enter His presence and must be brought out painfully into the open and burned away. Look at Isaiah 6. When he sees the holiness of God, Isaiah falls on his face. He doesn't go and tell others or leave to go to seminary or think to himself how much someone else needs to hear the message. When first overcome with the holiness of God, Isaiah can only see his own sin and unworthiness in light of the perfect Father. Without evidence of true repentance (spoken about in Luke 3) I would argue that one has never seen the holiness of God. Yes, the standard is to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48)
dont even get me started on the beatitudes... heres a hint ... it starts in the individuals heart and then works eventually to a community level. ... The second beatitude (mourning) is certainly not grieving the loss of a loved one or a bad test grade ... no it has to do again with sin... thats all I'll say
True Corey, the hear is where the transformation begins. The problem is that our churches today say to change our exterior and the heart will follow...that is heresy, leading thousands to Hell. The reality is that if we identify with holiness, the heart will change, transforming the outside.
the thing is ... we have to understand the fear of God. He is equally as terrifying as He is loving. When we hate the things that God hates and love the things that he loves I will guarantee that our actions will change. You nailed it Was ... its internal to external. Exodus 20:20 --> the fear of God remaining in us that we may not sin. I love it
Corey, man, it's been so long since I saw you last- how's school been? Anyways, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that it took me so long to not only start participating in this conversation, but to merely find the site. But my technological shortcomings and misplacing of information are another story....
I love the concept of changing your interior, and therein changing your exterior, and it's so true. So many times our churches today have become guilty of getting new "sinners" into the building, and as soon as they make a commitment, we seclude them from the world- change their exterior friends and surroundings and create for them a new plastic face to go out into life without addressing the real problem- spiritual emptiness and brokenness.
It's just like you guys said, if we instead of focusing solely on their surroundings, and instead on creating DISCIPLES, not only could we help to build their relationship with the Father, but they could there in help someone else! It's amazing how God created the whole engrafted branches system to work.
The perfect example of this was something I read in "Organic Church" by Neil Cole. What he cited was the methodology of the Communists. When someone joined the party, they weren't locked in a room and made to study the history and bylaws of the party, but rather, they were thrown on the streets with pamphlets and propaganda and had to deal with dissenting and angry passerbyers. The new members would then be required to search for the answers to what they were being asked and there in came to know the true meanings and goals of the Communist movement quicker and in a realer sense.
If we would not be afraid of doing this with our new believers and instead of trying to lord over them, put them in the hands of God we would have so many more disciples who were truly seeking Holiness, from the inside out- realizing what God truly intended for this movement, instead of the ideas of man.
As far as some of the practices go, this may be a little far out, but I don't think it would be too strange in this light to say that we should try more to be Communists for Christ!
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haha ... ok thats a fair argument I suppose ... i wonder what the three deleted posts said and it kinda makes me laugh .. havent seen any deleted yet but o well.
Good to hear from you as well Josh and I trust that all is well. As for the "thrown into the streets" kind of argument, I beleive that the intentions are good but the methods aren't as solid. See, Christianity and denominational differences follow a pattern of overcorrection of the mistakes that the past genaration/era made. As far as new converts go, we need to be careful on sending them out to a life of doing things for Christ; I don't believe that the New Testament teaches this anywhere. While there is a lot of value that can be gained by this "street-learned" faith I think that it is still an overcorrection from indoctrination. Let me explain myself from scripture.
First of all, a true new convert will be craving the truth of the Word and to pull him away from that to jump into service seems to me like putting a gag in the mouth of the Holy Spirit to harnass the energy for other purposes. Additionally, look at the scriptures. Ephesians 1-3 ... doctrine .. Eph 3-6 ... duty. Romans 1-11 ... doctrine ... Rom 12-16 duty. You cant know the will of God until your mind is renewed (Rom 12:2). For practical applicational purposes, I think that we can take a few pages out of a farmers book. Yoke a young believer with a more mature one. The Bible constantly teaches mentoring.
I hope that I didn't completely misunderstand your ideas and then proceed with a useless response, and I don't mean for this to be a harsh rebuttal (sp?) but we need to be careful of overcorrection.
Stay strong and imitate Christ.
Haha, hey man all 3 of the deleted were me trying to figure out how this thing worked and posting something 3 extra times because they didn't show up immediately!! Gotta love computers!
I guess I really didn't clarify my point definatively enough last time. I completely understand where you are coming from with not trying to make new believers enter servitude immediately. What I was referring to was more so the aspect of witness. New believers have a zeal that many seem to lose over time. I just think that sometimes we fail to take advantage of that new zeal they have and get them to spread the Word of God.
Now granted, they may not know all the answers, but if they are truly seeking the mind and heart of God, then that won't deter them. And that's where your awesome point of a mentor comes in. When they don't know the answers, they seek a mentor, someone with the knowledge of where to send them in the word, and where to find God's will and desire for that certain situation. I just think that too often we fail to capitalize on the zeal a life is saved with in leading others to the same salvation. After all, one who has been forgiven greatly will love greatly, so I guess what I was referring to was evangelism, not service. Sorry for being so vague before...
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